RSS Feed

On Black Sabbath and Indian Classical Music

Dio - Black Sabbath. Photo by NYCArthur

I habitually post once a week. Last week I spent all my available time in a short trip and in replying to comments here or in posting comments on other blogs. All I can do now is reporting some of these conversations by splitting them in a sequence of posts, this being the first one.

It’s not a vile expedient. A dialogue or conversation to me is important, my method post being evidence of it.

The people involved in the conversation(s) are Ashish, an Indian young man from Maharastra; Poonam Sharma, an Indian young woman from New Delhi; the Commentator, a Canadian of Italian origin from Quebec; Paul Costopoulos, a Canadian of French and Greek descent, from Quebec as well.

Texts in square brackets are notes by MoR. For the original conversation see the previous post’s comment section.

Saving a Friend From Metal Rock?

Poonam Sharma. Yes, Ashish must indeed be saved from rock music… All songs [proposed in MoR’s previous post] are new for me, so my unaccustomed ear will have a try at them.

MoR. So far the effect on him of my music preaching has been negligible.

A person like Ashish cannot be caged by Black Sabbath forever! Maybe the works by Bach proposed though are too complicated. Bach is severe but being mystical he might appeal to Indian minds like yours and Ashish’s.

Ashish. Thank you! [referring to my last post meant to redeem him] I also just begun on Indian Classical music with Pandit Hari Prasad Chaurasia’s Call of the Valley. Can’t wait to start on this … yes, Ashish must indeed be saved from rock music. I think it’s too late for that! You don’t know the beauty of listening to Heaven and Hell, then Stargazer and jumping to Ahir Bhairav just yet!!

MoR. It’s not that I don’t like rock, I’m still listening to it now and then. It’s just that a mind needs all types of nourishment. I’m sure you’ll find depths in Indian classical music unknown to Sabbath. Ahir bhairav? I checked, it seems to be a Hindustani classical raga. I wish I had some knowledge of Indian ragas. Why then don’t you flood me with links? Why don’t you become just a bit (or a lot) a Man of India – instead of repeating of yourself: ‘The British left, but left him’ …? :-)

The Power of Sabbath

(Sabbath. Heaven and Hell – Neon Knights. Live. From this post by Ashish)

Ashish. Alright, this needs some explaining.

You see, I am NOT a music person. All this passion for music started when we started the cyber cafe as background music when I worked. The problem was that the hindi (Indian) songs were too much intrusive and I couldn’t concentrate so I loaded up my playlist with English ones. Slowly I listened to the music, started liking it and when I bought a new MP3 player I started listening a week.

Currently, on my holiday’s I usually go out for long walks early in the morning for I dislike meeting people. So what to do during the day when for the most part of 12 hours there is no electricity? How to relieve myself from the world? Thats where rock saves me.  ;-)

It’s not like I “hate” Indian music. It just seems more vocal focused. Whoever has the best voice wins. Heck, I even dislike modern rock as you know and prefer the 70’s or 80’s act meself. It’s the music.. so much different, myriad filled with epics, dragons (Ronnie Dio happens to be my favourite vocalist) or drugs!

As for becoming Man of India well there are too many Men of India preaching this and that. I prefer not being tied to a region or place. The world is free I think to live wherever I want, like whatever I want, eat whatever I want. (This is a rant not for you but for everyone who advises in regionalism..)…

Paul. Ashish, try to get «Beatles go baroque», Naxos 8.990050F, original Beatles’s songs by John Lennon and Paul McCartney arranged by Peter Breiner in the styles of Handel, Vivaldi or J.S. Bach. A real treat. It was recorded in 1992, in Bratislava by the Slovak Philarmonic. The beat and the music is there with a special flavor.

Ashish. Paul, thanks for that! Thats seems like some Beatles I can stomach! (I have their greatest hits package but don’t listen to it that much.) Will try to find this! Thanks very much! :-)

The Commentator. (…) I’m starting to like Ashish. He pulls out the Sabbath. I like to listen to hard stuff every once in a while. Why, just today I was blasting The Ramones. But what a long walk from the beautiful masterpieces of Western classical music to rock.

Let’s see Western musical heritage: classical, ragtime, jazz, blues, country, bluegrass, rock, hard rock, motown, disco, punk, techno, grunge – interesting evolution. I know. An incomplete list and definitions. But you get the picture.

Ashish. LOL thank you Commentator. I’m just getting into the stuff actually. There is so much music and so little time!

Sarinda, Indian bow string instrument

MoR. Ashish, you say: “It’s not like I hate Indian music. It just seems more vocal focused.”

Voice, ok. But as far as I know there are lots of instruments as well, complex and exciting. Percussions are very rich, plus we have bow string instruments like Sarinda (see above) and Sarangi, stringed instruments like the Sitar (a great myth of my generation because of the Beatles and Ravi Shankar) and many others I don’t know the names of.

Probably Indian music is monodic, so melody plays a great role, and of course voice can be central, though not only I think. What I like very much is the way the Indians treat the melody (vocal or instrumental), fascinating for its sensual ornaments and especially quarter tones (!!), so exotic to Western ears!

Ashish. Nay, you’re talking Indian Classical music. I was talking about the regular – which is mostly film music and most all of which is vocal focused. But like I said above, the bug of classical music has bitten me now and I’m ready to dive in that ocean.

Bolly Songs and Classical Ragas

MoR. Great. I loved the music you presented in your post: the songs reminded me of my stay in India but the classical Ahir Bhairav type of music you present [which can be listened here] is much more profound, there is a total difference in depth. Depth is to be experienced especially at your age, since it’ll get deeper into your blood. [What I am not at all able to figure out is how, according to these Hindustani ragas, the music is slowly building up in more and more complex variations, I mean in which ways, according to which rules.]

Ashish. That is what I liked about it, depth. You could just lay back and watch as the music danced in front of your eye with varied textures.

Oriental Quarter tones

(We can finish with the Man of Roma talking about things he knows nothing about)

MoR. Oriental and Indian music has quarter tones, I can dare say. In the first notes of the song Hur Hura Asathe you have embedded in your post – I might be wrong – one experiences quarter tones.

On a keyboard, the distance in pitch between for example a C note and a D note (two white keys) is called a whole tone and this tone is cut into two halves (2 semitones) by classical Western music (C-C#; C#-D).

So between a C and a D we have only one possible note in between: C#.

In Oriental music instead a whole tone is cut into 4 different notes, 4 quarter tones.

It is one reason why the first notes of the said song (see the movie below) sound vague to a Western ear, which increases their fascination. I don’t think it is by chance by the way that the Italian word vago (= vague) means both vague and beautiful.

This whole inter-cultural thing is of course fascinating.

ψ

Related post (and conversation):

Examples of Monodic and Polyphonic Music

About Man of Roma

I am a man from Rome, Italy. I’m 60 and a Roman since many generations. In my blog, manofroma.wordpress.com, I’m writing down my meditations. The idea behind it all is that something 'ancient' is still alive in the true Romans of today, of which few are left.

33 responses »

  1. Your last post was a lot of fun.

    One small correction: Technically, I’m simply just a “Canadian” who lives in Quebec. English-Canadian implies I’m of English origin. A more accurate description would be I’m a English speaking, Canadian-Italian who lives in French speaking Quebec. Heh.

    Hence, I’m just Canadian. It’s easier and less involved. Heh, again.

    Reply
  2. Paul Costopoulos

    When my son was about 21 or 22 he had listen to some Pink Floyd using an electronic contraption that isolated the basic melodic line and muted everything else: it was a pure delight. I tried mentally to repeat that with Sabbath. I concentrated on the guy on the right, the one with the guitar. I guess I got what he was playing…and it was beautiful. I managed to block the other distracting noises. Of course seeing helped.
    As for the Indian singer, the lines I did not get, but the singing reminded of a gregorian chant with many neumes and quilismos most meditative.
    Thanks for the experience.

    Reply
  3. I loved to read this post. I laughed out aloud that we managed to coerce Ashish to defend himself why he listens to rock.

    As for discussions from me, I am no music fan. I listen to some known Eng songs, oldies mostly know and Hindi Bolly numbers that Ashish finds too vocal to concentrate. :)

    Reply
  4. @The Commentator

    Technically, I’m simply just a “Canadian” who lives in Quebec… A more accurate description would be I’m a English speaking, Canadian-Italian who lives in French speaking Quebec. Heh.

    I have corrected it. I wanted readers to know your language is English, not French. This whole language and ethnicity thing in Canada is interesting (and complicated). You made me laugh. It’s like you need or invoke patience vs your fellow Québécois (and Canadians).

    @Paul

    using an electronic contraption that isolated the basic melodic line and muted everything else: it was a pure delight. I tried mentally to repeat that with Sabbath.

    This capacity of mentally isolating single elements of a music is very important, I believe. We talked about that as regards polyphony. Such great fun!

    I have to confess that in the late Sixties I tried this thing with the help of marijuana, which, by modifying brain chemistry greatly increased this skill like by magic. In an entire orchestra made of hundreds of instruments I could isolate one single flute or a clarinet etc. From those days I didn’t smoke marijuana anymore and I’m strongly against it and drugs in general.

    Much better to develop mental skills and the capacity of savouring experiences without any external help. It is like always walking with a stick. No stick, no walking anymore. No dope, no fun anymore. Dangerous in my view. Not to mention some memory damage (or heavy brain damage with harder drugs), this tendency of escaping from reality etc.

    Young people need to integrate with society and work to be fully happy, and not to get lost in a world of dreams. It is a problem many societies face today, this alienation and drifting apart of the young. I know this whole thing of light drugs and young people is controversial, and that there are different approaches to this issue.

    Yes, Gregorian music and Indian music seem both meditative and spiritual, which is enchanting, no doubt.

    Reply
  5. @Poonam

    I laughed out aloud that we managed to coerce Ashish to defend himself why he listens to rock.

    Ah ah ah, yes. As usual you are perceptive, with your catchful eye :-)

    Thing is I just did some copying and pasting. It seems like he’s kinda cornered in a comical way, true. One special gift Ashish has is his humour (!) whatever activity is around him, like this conversation. He has erased or lost his previous blog which contained humoristic gems. Now he has not much time for blogging. Such an adorable guy, I cannot forget how he taught me things and especially how he has supported me with his friendship and wit. A friendship of course that couldn’t but be returned.

    Unlike him, I love ‘Hindi Bolly numbers’ as well, as you call them. I think Bollywood is reaching a wider global appeal, while earlier it was more confined to Asia (which nonetheless was already a huge market.)

    I mean, people here in the West, when watching such movies, are now expecting actors to start singing and dancing. They are expecting it. It is such fun and beauty, people from here start to understand it. I hope Bollywood movies will be more and more translated into English for the foreign market. And, as far as I can tell, even those songs, which are just songs (being these movies for the masses), retain some flavour of the Indian classical tradition, like the last song in my post, which I took from Ashish.

    A friend of mine, who played the bass in my band (yes, I had a rock band, like everyone in my time, as an apish imitation of the Beatles) tried to learn the Sitar. I think he failed miserably, reason being Sitar is difficult and he was not such an instrumental guy.

    Reply
  6. Paul Costopoulos

    Man of Roma, I guess Commentator has a point about his Canadianness. I also consider myself a Canadian, albeit one that speaks French. The French-Canadians never considered me one of theirs nor the Greek-Canadians for that matter. Being of two national origins is thus a boon and a bane.

    =====

    MoR:

    Paul, I can understand what you mean by boon and bane. In any case, it has been proven that belonging to diverse origins makes people more intelligent.

    As far as I understood from the Commentator’s posts, ethnicity counts more in Canada than it does in the USA. So, a US Italian-American (or Greek-American) is much more American than he is Italian or Greek, while in Canada ethnicity counts more, with pros and cons vis-à-vis politics, administration and Canada national identity.

    I think it is important that people understand both the differences and similarities between Canada and the USA. We tend to see Canada and USA as a whole, while Mexico of course is seen as different. To me, for example, some Canadian movies have been a revelation some years ago, plus of course talking with you guys from there.

    I remember the Commentator saying that the image of Canada abroad should be better promoted. I fully agree. Canada is a G8 state, but it is little known in its peculiarities so it is easier to think of it as simply the outskirts of the USA.

    Reply
  7. Life’s a carousel;
    Spinning fast, you’ve gotta ride it well,
    The world is full of kings and queen’s,
    who blind your eyes and steal your dream’s,
    It’s Heaven and Hell!

    \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/

    Unless you didn’t notice, the current lineup of Sabbath [going under the name Heaven and Hell] is 3/4 of Italian origin – Ronnie Dio, Tony Iommi and Vinny Appice! :P

    I tried mentally to repeat that with Sabbath. I concentrated on the guy on the right, the one with the guitar. I guess I got what he was playing…and it was beautiful. I managed to block the other distracting noises. Of course seeing helped.
    I do that when I’m listening to the Ozzy or Martin era’s. But the Dio album’s are really more like a two punch with the heavy riffs and the wizards and towers coming alive! :D

    Hashish
    Ah, I am intoxicating! [A drug!] :P

    He has erased or lost his previous blog who contained such humoristic gems.
    I still have the backup before I moved to my own domain. Used to be more serious about blogging then. There were many more inspirations then.. I used to have an impressive list of blogs I read. These days its mostly you, Poonam, Reema, Dabido and Ishmeet. Common themes everywhere.. social issues. :| [I know they’re needed, but Poonam does enough for me. :P ]

    Unlike him, I love Hindi Bolly numbers as well, as you call them. I think Bollywood is reaching a wider global appeal, while earlier it was more confined to Asia, which nonetheless is a huge market all by itself.
    Ahem. You haven’t been tortured with Himes Reshamiyya 24×7 for 2 months have you? If you had, you’d be like me. :twisted:

    I am collecting some Marathi movies which have english subtitles for you. You’ll like them. Marathi movies with english subtitles are rare, but I might be able to translate at least one! :D

    yes, I had a rock band, like everyone in my time, as an apish imitation of the Beatles etc.
    Aha! So you finally admit it! You did say once that you aspired to be a pianist! [Psst.. have some songs I can listen to? :D ]

    Btw, check out the songs I sent you via mail. :)

    Reply
  8. Paul Costopoulos

    MoR, you are right, The USA is a melting pot while Canada promotes respect, with ups and downs, of multiculturalism, drawing from the diverse origins of it’s population, a richness and an originality all it’s own. You can be Canadian without negating your roots.

    ====

    MoR:

    Paul, Canada in fact is much appreciated for its original approach to multiculturalism. I like this approach. As far as myself – it’s an example – I find it easier to interact with you people from there – Greek, French and Italian roots making it simpler, a heritage somewhat linked to the Mediterranean and to Europe.

    But I love the USA as well. It is an object of facination, no doubt, and a great myth, which Obama is trying to renew. I liked his inaugural speech very much.

    Reply
  9. @Ashish

    Unless you didn’t notice, the current lineup of Sabbath … is 3/4 of Italian origin – Ronnie Dio, Tony Iommi and Vinny Appice

    Italians are everywhere. They started to migrate from the Renaissance on … Hey, it must be a mania of Italians to bear names like Madonna (virgin Mary mother of God) or Dio (Italian word for God). Typical. We are an unassuming folk. :-)

    Hashish. Ah, I am intoxicating! [A drug!]
    Sorry *Ashish*. I swear it was not intentional. I’ve corrected it.

    Used to be more serious about blogging then. There were many more inspirations then..

    I can understand. To me it is like a retirement hobby, while you are at the beginning of your life, where more action is required. Glad that you still have a backup of that blog! Why don’t you repost IT ALL into your new blog?

    You haven’t been tortured with Himes Reshamiyya 24×7 for 2 months have you?

    Ah ah, no, I have not. I know not all Bollywood is good, of course. But to me it is refreshing compared to the stuff we have here. I love variety of cultures.

    Common themes everywhere.. social issues

    Well, social issues are important, although they should not devour all other stuff in my view. Politics and engagement cannot devour the rest of a culture. The topic had been fully discussed during the years of my youth: (political and social) engagement (involvement) or non engagement? Both must exist. One-track culture sounds like communism.

    Btw, I received your music by mail. Ogg format … I might need Linux to play it. Too lazy to download an XP reader or decoder for that, plus my XP is too stuffed with programs.

    Have a good day friend!

    Update. No, Ogg works fine with what I have in XP. Amazing musical stuff you sent!!! Thanks Man of India dude!!! :-)

    Reply
  10. “I also consider myself a Canadian, albeit one that speaks French. The French-Canadians never considered me one of theirs nor the Greek-Canadians for that matter. Being of two national origins is thus a boon and a bane.”

    MOR, it is complicated – for nothing I wonder. But I agree with Paul here. The idea of “belonging” is more elusive here. That’s why being American might be better – if that’s what you’re looking for. Many, many Italians are inter-married with French and Irish. They’re never considered one or the other. Which is unfortunate.

    Personally, I think it’s an advantage to be a mix. After all, as MOR would know, isn’t Italian culture but a massive mix of many great cultures that have passed through it over the centuries? Does a “pure” race even exist? I mean, from the Celts, Normans, Arabs, Germanic tribes, Spanish, French, Austrian-Hungarians etc. etc logic dictates blood and race fused over time.

    Here I know, through my interactions with Greek friends, the Greeks tend to be far more accepting that their race is “pure.” I don’t think it exists. Or even Quebecers with “pure laine” yet when you look at a “pure laine” some have Irish-Scot names!

    I think eventually being a “mix” will be the norm.

    That’ why Paul listens to Floyd. He needs to “relax.”

    By the way, here’s another interesting thing about us Quebecers: we’re probably the most progressive rock listeners in North America. It is HERE U2, Genesis, Pink Floyd and a few others first found their fan bases. French-Canadians are huge supporters of Montreal’s only classic rock station and it always struck me how we love what is termed “progressive” rock.

    King Crimson baby, King Crimson.

    ======

    MoR:

    Dear Commentator, this relationship between races and culture (or civilization, when complexity is high) is complicated. We’ve already discussed it a bit. First of all Cavalli Sforza has brilliantly proved races – as many people consider them – don’t exist. Secondly we must distinguish between behaviours transmitted genetically and behaviours that are *learned*, e.g. transmitted via the historical & social environment (the vast majority of behaviours).

    Cultural behaviours tend to survive even in long periods (thousands of years) – take the submitted genuflection of the Muslims, identical to that of the much more ancient Egyptians to their Pharaohs or as a simple salutation. Behaviours tend to survive especially when issued by rich and strong heritages and even if the underlying ‘races’ get mixed in the meanwhile. Thus said it can make sense to say the Italians or the Greeks or the Iranians / Persians retain something of their ancient past. This though being due more to cultural transmission rather than to their belonging to this or that genetic pool, in my view.

    In a moment of clash of civilizations, of vast nomadic migrations and growing racism, these topics have become hot, no doubt. Plus it is natural for people to identify themselves genetically with their ancestors (parents etc.). But within a context of thousands of years it doesn’t work that way in my view. Most behaviours are absorbed by the environment.

    What about those behaviours which come instead from the genes (like gender behaviour, but not only)? Aren’t ‘strong, more adaptive’ genes influential? This is a longer story. It can’t be discussed here.

    PS
    This post of mine (click *this link*) explains a bit cultural transmission (and survivals) in long historical periods, with the help of the French historian Braudel.

    Reply
  11. Manofroma: I don’t know where, but I read somewhere that Ronnie took his name from some Mob/Mafia boss.

    Sorry *Ashish*. I swear it was not intentional. I’ve corrected it.
    But it was a fun joke nonetheless. :P

    Why don’t you repost IT ALL into your new blog?
    I’ve debated it, yeah. But I’ve decided that maybe I should just let it stay dead. But it was fun nonetheless. :)

    I sent the music over in .ogg because you once told me that you’re music is mostly in FLAC. Plus since you use Ubuntu, I thought .ogg might be your thing. :P Both have been ripped straight from the CD. Wanted to send FLAC but too much to upload. :(

    The Commentator: RUSH! RUSH! :twisted: \m/

    Reply
  12. @Ashish

    Well, also most Mafia bosses are of Italian origin. This is our geat contribution to the world! (together with Dio and C., of course) :-)

    I don’t see why your old posts should stay dead. Besides, since now you have less time for blogging, it could be quicker to post the old stuff you like best bit by bit, with (or without) adaptations.

    I forgot I had installed add-ins in Winamp for ALL music codecs (Ape included). Of course my favourite codec is the lossless ogg flac, but the sound quality of the lossy ogg Vorbis is not bad.

    Reply
  13. hmmm..a little lost here as to the point of the whole conversation so I’ll just say that I love all music and can find gems in all genres. I raised my children to appreciate all as well. I brought them to classical concerts as babies, but also let them have their way with rock, jazz,…all of it. Today, they are grown but 2 out of three are musicians and one just has a great ear but will prefer just listening. I also notice that all conversation here ends in the 60’s with the beatles and black sabbath. lol. Why is that?

    Reply
    • @Maryann

      a little lost here as to the point of the whole conversation

      Yeah, lots of weird digressions, though I like *digressions*. Of course gems are in any kind of music, I was a kinda rock musician in my teens and my myth were the English Beatles and Pink Floyd and the US Byrds (plus of course Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, Hendrix etc. … later I loved the professionality – and inspiration – of the Chicago etc.). I also adore jazz, almost ALL of it!

      2 out of three kids of yours musicians, and one has a great ear: that means music is very present at your home Maryann! The reason why all conversation here ends in the 60’s etc. is because Ashish, who is 19 or 20, prefers English rock (well, English metal rock lol) from the 60’s-70’s, and I tried to bug him into widen his music horizons a bit, which I think he is already doing by himself. Plus Paul, this Canadian guy, should be more or less my age. Glad you popped in, Marianna! (If I may call you like that.)

      Reply
  14. Umm…what help were you referring to?

    If you ask my taste its exactly similar to Poonam. :)
    English songs of ABBA, Roxette, ace of base, Bryan Adams, Bolton, Madonna,MLTR, Andy Williams, Shania twain, etc etc (long list) and Hindi Bollywood songs for me.

    Reply
  15. @Reema

    Well, on Twitter I meant some Indian take on the post, which regards Bollywood songs, Indian classical music and Western rock. I mean, apart from Ashish (and Poonam who already commented) I am Italian and the other two persons are Canadian. So easy to say stupidities on things belonging to another civilization. :-)

    Reply
  16. Paul Costopoulos

    MoR, I’ll turn 78 at the Ides of march. Fortunately I’m not Ceasar.

    Reply
  17. @Paul

    Ah ah, yes, lucky you are not him! Incredible! My best compliments. I should cut out some wine to reach well your age. But what is life without a bit of wine?

    PS
    Some similarities between Greek songs and Indian songs could be a common Islamic influence.

    Reply
  18. Paul Costopoulos

    Could most certainly be. 800 years of Ottoman rule does leave traces does it not? After all my thoroughly Greek father, once in a while wore a fez. So why not Greek folk music!

    Reply
  19. @Paul

    In fact what hit me the first time I went to Greece was music. The people were exactly like us (‘stessa faccia stessa razza’ = same face same race), but when I turned on the car radio I was so puzzled, recognizing something oriental in the songs! Of course, that made me love Greece even more. After a few days I met my wife in a small Greek village.

    Did you read Report to Greco by Nikos Kazantzakis? He describes the day Greece had liberation from the Turks. There was enthusiams all over Crete. His father being already dead he went to the graveyard, made a hole on the ground where his father had his rest and poured some wine for him through that hole, so they could celebrate together. Outstanding.

    I talk about Kazantzakis and Greece in *this post* and also *here*.

    Well, I talk about Greece almost everywhere. They were our mentors.

    Reply
  20. Paul Costopoulos

    Unfortunately, MoR, I have not read Kazantzakis, but the cemetary scene sure makes him most sympathetic. The funny thing is that it happened in Crete. Over here we have a TV weatherman called Pascal Yacouvakis. When the speaker refered to him as being Greek he corrected him and said:«I’m a Cretan, not a Greek». Would Kazantzakis say the same thing?
    The one uniting factor is Music, that is universal and transcends artificial borders and nationalities.
    All our leaders should be musicians and all the U.N. representatives also. Get a good Maestro and peace will reign. Well one can dream, can not one?

    Reply
    • @Paul

      «I’m a Cretan, not a Greek». Would Kazantzakis say the same thing?
      Probably. I think he felt he was first Cretan and then Greek. He spoke of a ‘régard cretois’, fundamental in his philosophy. ‘Report to Greco’ is like a final life report to this great past Creatn painter. But he went beyond. He was a universal spirit. Great mind indeed.

      All our leaders should be musicians and all the U.N. representatives also. Get a good Maestro and peace will reign.

      You made me laugh. But yes, you are right.
      Btw, I have many of Kazantzakis’ works in French. I much prefer French to English for recreating a Mediterranean atmosphere.

      Reply
  21. I’ll comment more later but to Ashish:

    Rush. Yes indeed.

    Saw them live in Montreal. Great hard, critically acclaimed Canadian rock band.

    Maryann asks an interesting question. Bands from the 60s and 70s (and a few from the 80s. But proportionally it feels like the 60s and 70s have a great track record) seem to have more of a lasting impact on us. Even those of the 50s.

    Reply
  22. @Commentator

    Yes, true, the music of the 50s 60s and 70s (something of the 80s too) seems more valuable and lasting, many young people feel it. Although I don’t like to underline it since people might think I am biased because those were my roaring days. Well, roaring days, they should be at any time. :-)

    Reply
  23. Which brings me to my latest post on my blog: The Band. A great band from the 60s.

    Reply
  24. Paul Costopoulos

    Ladies and Gentlemen, it used to be that before being famous, all artists had to work very hard and earn their notoriety. We live in the era of the instant fabricated star or should I say, shooting star. Promotors, impresarii take a so called artist under their wing and hire a publicity company. They create the artist out of nothing, make money and dump the poor critter for another expendable plum. No wonder that those poor guys do not develop the loyal fans that the Stings or the Beattles or Prince et alii have developped.
    Instant coffee is a stop gap but will never replace the real thing. Besides, today, even without a voice, electronics can make a great singer out of any body…until the first electricity outage.

    Reply
    • Thank you Reema! These two links are very informative with loads of good music. This Punarjanman seems to have good knowledge. So now I know the difference between Tanpura and Sitar. I knew you’d be helping. Ciao.

      Reply
  25. hmmm..a little lost here as to the point of the whole conversation so I’ll just say that I love all music and can find gems in all genres. I raised my children to appreciate all as well. I brought them to classical concerts as babies, but also let them have their way with rock, jazz,…all of it. Today, they are grown but 2 out of three are musicians and one just has a great ear but will prefer just listening. I also notice that all conversation here ends in the 60’s with the beatles and black sabbath. lol. Why is that? (By Maryann)

    I’m printing out and framing MaryAnn’s comment to show everyone. :D

    Yes, true, the music of the 50s 60s and 70s (something of the 80s too) seems more valuable and lasting, many young people feel it. Although I don’t like to underline it since people might think I am biased because those were my roaring days. Well, roaring days, they should be at any time. (By MoR)

    Maryann asks an interesting question. Bands from the 60s and 70s (and a few from the 80s. But proportionally it feels like the 60s and 70s have a great track record) seem to have more of a lasting impact on us. Even those of the 50s. (By The Commentator)

    I wish to uh.. have my invaluable [and inexperienced] opinions presented before you. The 70’s music is more experimental, free flowing. You can literally hear the musician’s wandering around the path rather than follow the same line over and over and over. Most of the band’s today are more “genre” bound over artistic. You can bet that an extreme metal band would be willing to pound that drum 100x more just to prove they’re extreme than add a little melody. Band’s rarely move off the beaten path. Most of the 2000’s music has that “ripped off you’ve heard it before” feeling.

    Many of my friends frown on Sabbath [the Ozzy version] as the be and end of all the banging, but that was a band that was not afraid to experiment. The album Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and it’s follower Sabotage are prime examples.

    On one hand you have the excess of the Hard Rock/Metal superstars or the artistic majesty of the Prog Rock masters.

    I believe I can count albums of the 2000’s that compare to the 70’s bands on the fingers of one hand and still have fingers left over. :P

    [Don’t ask about the 60’s. Just starting on it. :P]

    Although all of the above is the opinion of a fanboy.. take it with a grain of salt. :P \m/

    The Commentator: Yet to attend a concert. :| :cry: Hopefully I don’t have to wait long! Heehee!

    MoR:
    I am not such an expert, but it seems to me that in the 50s rock and roll was a major breakthrough (vis-à-vis Perry Como or Pat Boone sweet melodies etc.), the 60s also (the beat etc.), and the 70s continued but also started the ‘progressive’ thing (more experimental, as you say): Pink Floyd etc. My critical knowledge of all this is close to zero though, I’ll confess, because from 1968 onwards I concentrated mainly on classical music.

    Reply
  26. I PROTEST OFFICIALLY!

    The title of this post was NOT:

    On Black Sabbath and Rock of ALL Ages!
    :-)

    Kidding. I loved this discussion. Plus it proves that my chances of redeeming Ashish are close to zero, it’s like preaching in the desert ;-)
    (a phrase from the Bible: ‘talking to someone that doesn’t listen’, which it’s not your case Ashish, you Emperor paying a salary to your Chief Historian so sometimes you pretending to listen … with condescension … to save appearances) :-)

    Reply
  27. Yes Ashish, bands of today are more “technical.” I don’t connect to very many bands/singers of today – I have a modest music collection of 1100 cd’s and albums.

    Everything seems so manufactured now.

    Reply
  28. @Ashish
    @The Commentator
    @Paul
    @Maryann

    Maryann’s words, ‘framed’ by Ashish, I totally agree with:

    I brought them to classical concerts as babies, but also let them have their way with rock, jazz,…all of it.”
    Yes, all of it. Music is just one.

    I also think that ‘the instant fabricated star’, the excessive post-production techniques etc. all makes today’s rock too manufactured, artificial, too market-related.

    But this artificiality and lack of profundity is not only technical, it is social and cultural as well, I believe. In the 60s-70s music was strongly motivated by ideologies related to the student revolution, to the 60s-70s *civil rights* and *counterculture* movements in the USA and elsewhere.

    They were (we were) a little bit fanatical (which is not at all good), but fanaticism (like religion) is a great inspirer, which had an impact on the quality of the music and lyrics. A strong need for change was felt. Bob Dylan who chanted ‘The times they are a-changing’ (and who btw almost received the Nobel Prize for his outstanding lyrics) cannot be separated by Martin Luther King, Carlos Castaneda (Mexican mushrooms so-called revolution), Allen Ginsberg, the black and the woman liberation movements etc. of those years in the West.

    And the *Woodstock Festival* in 1969 united all these elements, all this counter-culture – I remember Ravi Shankar (Indian classical sitarist), Santana, the Grateful Dead, the Who, Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Jimi Hendrix, Joan Baez.

    Probably metal rock, and also British progressive rock of the late 1960s and early 1970s was also – I may say a stupidity – inspired by all this, music avant-garde and politics being seldom very far from each other.

    In a way I envy the new generations here in the West. They seem less ideological, hence freer (we were not free: we had to get involved into social issues or we were sort of banned by our student milieu, at least in my country). But I also perceive some void which has again an effect on the quality of music and art:
    —> “all seems manufactured” and artificial.

    You may not like Bollywood music, Ashish, but in it – I may be wrong – I feel something of India’s boom, and in many Indian blogs I perceive a sort of motivation not totally dissimilar from ours in those years. Music and art are often linked to the society they live in, in my view.

    Often. Not always. An artist, writer, singer etc. can choose a total independent path, of course.

    Reply

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 157 other followers

%d bloggers like this: